After all, the missiles that an aircraft carries are just as important as the aircraft itself. A saturation missile attack could use up all a Type 45’s Asters in next to no time (just 8 Su-35s carrying 6 anti-ship missiles = 48 missiles = the number of Asters that a Type 45 carries). French, Italian carriers have missiles, no problem. So reading the comments here on Phalanx, the general view is the cannon itself is old and lacks range, and the ammunition is too small in calibre to stop larger missiles? “Ideally, it would have been built with VLS cells integrated as Charles de Gaulle was”. “So what” with regards money is just not a realistic place to be living- not even the US takes that approach to their vessels and other equipment. Carnerroc depredador This mount has a chance to drop from the rare Gieger, which can be spawned by channeling your Anima Conductor into the House of Constructs. Thank you for the advice, I have gone away and done some reading. Granted, they do have some PDMS, but there are strong arguments against using them, as I’ve mentioned before…. The RN is a very capable and ever more modern Navy but it is sadly, way smaller than it needs to be. Maybe it would be worth looking into the feasibility of fitting that to Wildcats to take out anti-ship missiles at range? “It would be nice to see that expanded to our RFA force too”. It does seem a bit stupid to “penny pinch” but the people who decide the budgets firstly don’t work in the industry so their comprehension on how engineering projects go is minimal, but also they have to justify that over spending that money on other things. I would far rather we standardise one way or another though. Because in low-threat environments, the missiles on the escorts as well as the 3 phalanx systems to protect the task-force from UAVs and subsonic anti-ship missiles is just fine.”. They’d potentially have long endurance and presumably wouldn’t be susceptible to threats like IDAS missiles (or equivalent). Either way, we’ve got torpedo defences on our warships. Asmongold Reacts to "Why Blackrock Depths is the Greatest MMORPG Dungeon of all time" by Tips Out - … (Left) Raytheon proposed a laser co-mounted with Phalanx as a solution to the RN’s requirement for a Laser Directed Energy Weapon (LDEW) Capability Demonstrator in 2016. Well, I revisited a calc I’d done for interest a while back, by way of simplistic comparison: 57mm, 76mm*, 114mm, 127mm all chuck out 9kg of ‘metal’ per second. Hey there lads and gals, Maybe that's just me, but holy moly, the fact that we don't have a healer troop or companion is just bonkers. (first time over £2 trillion)”. Once you’ve purchased the 180 Days Game Time product in the Shop, the Dreadwake mount … Anything would be an improvement over Harpoon, although LRASM is stealthy, whereas RBS-15 isn’t. In addition, the T45s will have countermeasures etc. Even non-state actors these days can get hold of anti-ship missiles. I didn’t even know this aircraft existed until you mentioned it. I could be wrong though. Currently air-launched missiles like the Russian Kh-95MK2 (range 550km) and P-800 Oniks (range 600km – 800km depending on variant) can be fired at ships from beyond the range of Aster 30. I’d say that deck penetration is vital to deal with saturation missile attacks. In regards the gun and radar, would it not be better for all guns to have their own radar, but also be fed by the main ships radar as well? Despite one component sliding out of the clamps, things went pretty well. The Artisan plus SeaCeptor is a known combination and will still relevant in 10 years, so long as obsolescence is managed. – Main gun: It would be a very lucky hit if one could take out an anti-ship missile. The Block 1/Baseline 0 (1988) featured better radar to detect a new generation of smaller supersonic anti-ship missiles. Maybe design both deck penetrating and non penetrating types as the ammunition load outs of the Phalanx do not seem high enough for modern saturation attacks, and deck penetration might be best for larger escorts dealing with this, whilst the non penetrating best for OPVs and RFAs. And if the drones are small, the missiles may have trouble hitting them anyway. As for new planes for the RAF, I’d rather we upgrade all our Tranche 2 Typhoons to Tranche 3A before we consider buying any new aircraft. “and also a lot of gear that isn’t operationally in use yet.”. Must make sure they are integrated with both Radar and the ships E/O systems for extra redundancy 😊. The more ammo a CIWS (or any gun) has access to the better. “Burkes do have 96 cells, but only the very newest run SM-6 and the AN/SPY-6 radars that make use of them. All the more reason to fit ships with better gun-based defences than Phalanx and electricity-based defences that don’t rely on missiles or ammo to defend a ship. I’ve read that CAMMs can be quad-packed in Mk41 cells as well as ADL launcher cells (16 CAMMs per launcher). I was thinking in line with that philosophy. “I would say that things should maintain commonality throughout the fleet though.” Well I’d say that if commonality can be achieved, then good, but it should be secondary to properly defending ships. “I think we’d be better off going for a straight buy of RBS-15.” I like RBS-15 Mk3 (Mk4 will be even better) and I’d like the frigates and destroyers to be fitted with it (it can also double as a land-attack missile), although I think it would be sensible to have a few LRASMs to take out carriers. Can be used by any class. Granted, they’re long in the tooth, but it’s worth bearing in mind that the newer Burkes (flight IIA) are FFBNW ASMs too- they don’t have a dedicated ASM either. Of course tests would need to be carried out to prove this and so I’d like realistic tests to be carried out on any weapons like the Millennium Gun and OTO Melara 76mm to see if they work as advertised before the RN buys any. The basic idea of Phalanx works, it’s the 20mm that is the problem. Wire-guided and wake-homing torpedoes would be particularly hard to decoy I’d have thought, so having a hard-kill system would be invaluable. Scutter can also be fitted to subs, so fit it to the Astutes, Trafalgars and Vanguards. 1 First round scepter holders 1.1 US 1.2 EU 2 Second Opening 3 Showing Up Late To Bang The Gong 3.1 US late 3.2 EU late 4 References This article is a list of scepter holders by server. Well firstly Phalanx is hardly credible against anything except subsonic missiles since it has an effective range of just 1.5km. How does Phalanx compare to the Oerlikon Millennium Gun or the Thales RAPIDSeaGuardian? Plus the article doesn’t state what type of anti-ship missiles were used. I’m not interested in budget contraints, real or alleged. HMS Iron Duke is still in the LIFEX shed since last year, she should be nearly ready now! The further away from a ship a missile is destroyed the better. As far as I’m aware, all RN warships carry pretty sophisticated EW suites- inlcuding the carriers. NSM or RBS-15. As they grow in power, theoretically targets could be destroyed at longer range and the Laser may eventually eclipse the gun and PDMS. During peaceful bar times, Phalanx is friendly. I’m afraid I don’t know anything more about the ECM than is publicly available (and the joys of working in the industry is that if I did, I wouldn’t be able to talk about it anyway). The RN is an incredibly professional service and my note should in no way undermine that reality. I’d even go as far as swaping their 57 mm with the T45’s 4.5″, but that may be going too far. Bearing in mind that the 1 Ticonderoga and 3ish Burkes in a USN CBG have to split their time between ASW and AAD, and the 2 No. The RN selected to go for the Phalanx 1B update instead. I just hope it’s not one we come to regret. So you can't farm the Predatory Plagueroc or the Fox if you aren't Necrolords or Ardenweald respectfully? (It would probably be cheaper to fit microwave weapons rather than an EW suite to ships that don’t currently have an EW suite.) Reaching the levels of 20, 40, 60 and 70 provide access to a new type or speed of mount in World of Warcraft (WoW). This link says nothing about it being under development:, “and while it should be good (if ASRAAM is anything to go by) Aster is in another league when it comes to performance”, “which goes a long way to cover the disparity in missile numbers between European escorts and US with larger numbers of less accurate missiles.”. In some respects it depends on what the MoD do with the retired T23s. There was a version that wasn’t bought by any country in late 80’s that included the possibility of start firing APFSDS when the enemy missile entered the last 1-1,5km. Phalanx has it’s on board air search radar, as described in the article (we are really talking emergency back up level stuff here). T45s and T26s shouldn’t have to be coming off station to provide land attack services, they have a purpose and they should stick to it. And if HVPs can be made to work against anti-ship missiles at 80+km that would be the best solution out of the 3. Roca-da-peste Predadora This mount has a chance to drop from the rare Gieger, which can be spawned by channeling your Anima Conductor into the House of Constructs. Why are we building anti-ship missiles that don’t have the necessary range when fired from ships? Likewise, if we pick up one of the models that has a land attack mode too, then we expand our surface fleet capability massively. And even if they do already have protection, Scutter would provide another layer of defence, so why not fit it? air, ballistic missile and space surveillance. Only usable on Kul Tiras, Zandalar and in unrated Battlegrounds. Any ASM/ land attack munition that we buy under the interim purchase will be cannister launched, so no need to consider them for the VLS. And with such a short effective range, how many anti-ship missiles could Phalanx take out? Local control from the mount is also possible. ; 88 mounts exclusive to Alliance characters. 100mm is also capable of genuine NGFS (76mm is somewhat marginal). Well the Burkes also have VL-ASROC, SM-3 and SM-6, plus those Mk41 cells mean that the Burkes could fit VL-launched anti-ship missiles if they wanted. A better system, but a more expensive system. ; 82 mounts exclusive to Horde characters. They don’t have the rate of fire of a CIWS, but they’d still provide another useful layer of defence, especially considering they’re longer ranged than CIWSes. And even the single purpose escorts had ASW weapons, T41 and T61, and the T12 had AAW systems. (Images: General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems), Rounds being loaded. Yes, from what I understand there are greater issues with them than with taking out missiles and stuff. To have a laser based CIWS system that can not only take out small UAVs, anti-ship missiles and an aircraft that strayed too close, is going to take a lot of power necessary to generate at least 50kw required by a laser that can destroy a target within a radius of 10km on a clear day. All ships should have them, even if only to be cued by the nearest escort when they run low. Yeah, well, a carrier getting sunk because it isn’t adequately protected is a pretty big downside I’d say. But they should imo. I’m just looking at the drawbacks of having missiel systems on a carrier, compared to their effectiveness and the carrier’s primary purpose. I don’t know if CAMM-ERs can be quad-packed in Mk41 cells, but if they can, then all the better. We don’t want a repeat of the Falklands where our ships were woefully under-armed/under-defended. According to it can engage 10 anti-ship missiles. The scepter holders are those who have opened the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj. A T23 with a tail can do everything a T23 can do, so how it is less GP? ☺️. Seeing as only around 3 may be available, would we really have it undertaking this task in such a high risk environment? There should be no half-measures because half-measures result in sunk ships and they get people needlessly killed. The Type 45s don’t even carry Aster 30 Block 1NT to take out ballistic anti-ship missiles, which makes no sense for air defence ships. Well I agree with that, but it’s gross negligence. That aspect of the weapon fit for the intended project costs appears fairly balanced. When assessing the effectiveness of Phalanx, it should be seen as one part of a layered defence system. ], “The guest poster at UKDJ probably meant that it’s technically possible, but it would seem that it hasn’t been done, for CAMM, CAMM-ER, or LRASM yet.”. Well they certainly spend vast amounts on the military, but no they don’t spend money on the things I’ve suggested to make surface ships more survivable. ), presumably the T26s and T45s, the 57 mm and 40 mm on the T31, as well as the gatling guns and 50 cals that can be mounted for dealing with small boat swarms, and the ASMs that are fitted to T45s and T23s. Text above picture of USS King and Block 0 Phalanx, The Type 22 HMS Broadsword and Brilliant both had 2 x 1 40mm/L60 Mark 9 guns but obviously Sea Wolf was their best defence 🙂, Phalanx is getting old now, dont get me wrong the mount and sensors are great but the M61 is the limiting factor. It either needs to be drastically improved or replaced. Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord Gamescom 2017 - Battania vs Empire. It would be a drop in the ocean compared to £2 trillion. – Norwegian Fridtjof Nansen-class frigate: 8 NSMs, 1 OTO Melara 76mm Super Rapid gun. “I would say that they should be changed fleet wide though, and ideally no be deck penetrating, so that they can be easily switched between vessels.” I mentioned this previously, but being deck penetrating means that you have access to far more ammo. (Right) Raytheon began consideration of a DEW version of Phalanx in 2007 with the  Laser Centurion Demonstrator for the US Army. Also bear in mind that the latest flight IIA Burkes don’t carry ASMs anymore, and the earlier ones only carry 8 ASMs, which is the same loadout as a T45 for surface warfare. The Artisan is a mature system granted but it is still useful. Joe, The T45 does have a decent sonar, a SSTD system includes the MFS-7000 bow sonar. And in any case, see my previous comment. Well it should be when it comes to properly defending our ships and the lives of the people on board, especially considering how few ships we have. That said, there’s quite a long history of service in my family, so I’m glad that you hold the RN in high regard! It might only cost an extra £500 million but they’d have to justify why they’re not spending that on healthcare or schools or paying off the national debt or on the Army or RAF (as they are in need new tanks and planes and on the front line more frequently than the Navy lately), because if the public at large don’t like it they lose their jobs (one of the downsides of living in a democracy). They may look at the Seamaster SM400 system replacing the EMPAR. Aren’t those the same as already run ing on the T-23 and going forward on the T-26. BAE have access to some of the best sensors out there as well as radar. This is obviously preferable to the intact missile impacting and detonating deep inside the ship but deadly fragments are likely to disable delicate sensors and penetrate the light steel plate of modern warships. – DS30Bs/DS30Ms: These are designed to take out fast attack craft. The ELC (Enhanced Lethality Cartridges) feature a heavier tungsten alloy penetrator. Secondly, a saturation attack of supersonic, hypersonic or ballistic missiles wouldn’t necessarily be needed. EW countermeasures are very effective but not often talked about, and I think those in combination with Phalanx (or perhaps the Bofors 40 mm which seems to be getting a lot of love in the comments section here) are sufficient for the carriers’ personal protection. Yes, they couldn’t get them to work. Like CH2 it’s all very good being top of the pile on entry into service, but it’s the ongoing improvements like the USN make with Burkes that keep them rrelevant. Well if the carriers don’t have ECM, then they should be fitted with SLQ-32 or something as good as or better than it. Most other LPDs in service have a least one main gun if not several. It is looted from Splinter Fist Warrior. Well Pearl Harbor happened in peacetime (well peacetime as far as the US was concerned anyway). Even against supersonic targets there may be a chance that the incoming anti ship missile is large enough and still retains enough kinetic energy to reach and damage the ship. It’s also ridiculously short-sghted because it would cost a lot more in the long run to replace sunk ships (can’t government beancounters see this?). Another weapon system from the T23 would be the 4.5″ gun, installed in the bow position that’s usually earmarked for the Phalanx. HVPs fired from main guns might be able to take out anti-ship missiles at range, but I’d like tests to be done to establish if this is actually the case. I wonder if airship drones could perform ASW duties? “A Sylver version would be a great way of finally getting strike length / additional cells onto the T45s without having 2 VLS types on one ship and combat management system, just saying…” Um, not sure what you mean. I also agree that there is No point in having StringRay launched from tubes. And because the carriers didn’t have cats & traps we had no AEW aircraft or non-STOVL aircraft. For RFA ships Phalanx is still very viable as a result of the RFA lack of appropriate Radar (Fire control, surveillance etc). The Type 45 is an incredible AAW vessel but what of a saturation scenario? Submarines handle land attack and ASuW. And the Type 31s are an absolute joke imo: only 12 CAMMs, no anti-ship missiles, no Griffin missiles, no sonar, no SSTD, no DS30Ms (which could be enhanced with LMMs when they’re ready) and no CIWS. Upgraded over time, it has been in service for 38 years with the Royal Navy. Does my covenant matter in terms of what mounts can drop? From what I’ve read, until it exceeds 300 kilowatts it won’t be able to shoot down anti-ship missiles, but at present it is capable of blinding or burning out the sensors in anti-ship missiles. “Neither the NSM, JSM, LRASM, nor the RBS-15 will fit internally on an F-35B”. I didn’t hear anyone say “we can’t afford it”, all I heard was that the banks are “too big to fail”. [And going off on a tangent, what can a Type 31 do in the Persian Gulf that an uparmed Batch 2 River couldn’t? Thank you. Locating suitable mou ring points with clearance to get beyond the flight deck will take some modeling and testing. Well firstly any pilot who flies in range of any ship-based defences needs his head examining and secondly why do you say that? That’s the overall weakness of scoring: plus points can be comprehended; but, without a reply, negatives are – what exactly? 3P was designed by Bofors yes but all 40/L70s can be upgraded to use it…the Argentine Navy have both Twin Fast Forty and 3P and the Italian Navy have the full DARDO CIWS with the Twin fast Forty and RTX 10 and RTX 20 radars on their Lupo Class Frigates. It’s cheaper than replacing a sunk ship. That is no reason not to improve with dazzlers, Dragonfire etc. I’d be very surprised if Phalanx could engage even 2 anti-ship missiles, let alone take them out. In the NPCs category. I agree with everything you wrote as reflective of the status quo but I think that parochial approach to escort purpose is deeply flawed when you have effectively turned a once global Navy into a flotilla at best. Double that and you ’ re too unsurvivable and i am struck by the.! Be minimal the flight deck AAW fit out etc a River class replace. 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