For hunting large game, you want more momentum to push through thicker hide and bones, which are denser and provide more resistance. I'm having my Father in law help me with all this since he has 20 years experience. And by flat we mean there is a less pronounced drop in elevation over time. }, i recenly purchased a 300wm,would i be able to use 300wsm with this same rifle. For the hunter who likes to shoot, and shoot long. Looking at the graph, the first thing youll notice is that all ten rounds generate a significant amount of recoil with over 24ft. ","catentryIDs" : "3074457345619148736"} I just bought one and started doing some load development. Precision chambers are fed from rotary magazines. And this is only five rounds for each cartridge. Accessories are available at authorized Browning dealers andhere on Browning.com. We also made sure to clear our variables. We were unable to fetch your Capital One account information. Longer barrel, great accuracy. Contact Us I got two 325wsm rifles. Subscribe to our newsletter and get gun deals, educational content, hand's on reviews and news on law changes! The differences between the two are somewhat negligible. My 300 is a 26" and so far that has never been a problem for me handling wise. The Best of both worlds: After nearly 4 years of waiting, Dan Wesson's DWX is here. Looking at the recoil of the .300 Win Mag vs .300 WSM is important for understanding certain situations that you might favor one over the other. Mag., 7mm Rem. This isnt to discredit the 300 WSM which is an outstanding cartridge. was 1-9.5 and the 300 Win. and 28 Nosler became 1-8. While bullet energy isnt everything you need for stopping power, it is still an important part, and these numbers should make you feel more comfortable when taking a shot. Item : BR035_395229 | SKU : | Model : | UPC : View 360 Image. I liked it so much so, I was abouut to buy it right then and there, if it wasnt for my 4 year old daughter needing to use the restroom and then crying walking back to rifle counter. MSRP: $2,190; bergarausa.com. For most people, this recoil is manageable especially given the extra stopping power and trajectory you get from it. You still get all the features that made the X-Bolt Hell's Canyon Speed a best-selling and game-changing rifle. In this section, we will look at velocity, trajectory, and ballistic coefficients of the .300 Win Mag vs 30-06. Because of that, we will strictly focus on energy that the bullet carries and will be transferred to the target and the potential amount of penetration you will get on the target. The X-Bolt Hell's Canyon SPEED Bolt-Action Rifle has all the features you need to stay concealed in arid, urban, or late autumn environments, and hit targets at long range. Although, most would agree that the 150-180 gr bullets often work the best with the cartridge. I believe its episode 33, bucking the wind its a good listen. "ItemThumbnailImage" : "https://assets.basspro.com/image/list/fn_select:jq:first(.%5B%5D%7Cselect(.public_id%20%7C%20endswith(%22main%22)))/2774534.json?$Prod_PLPThumb$" This cartridge is also one of the most famous magnum cartridges worldwide when it comes to factory loads. Remove from Compare Add to Compare. Browning X-bolt Hells Canyon - Max Lr 6.5cm 26hb Bronze-ovix Gun #: 946386940 Seller: GunFactory ( FFL) $1,399.99 Full Details 2 Image (s) Browning X-bolt Hells Canyon - Lr Mcmilan 6.5cm 26 Brnz-ovix Gun #: 989374838 Seller: GunFactory ( FFL) $2,399.99 Full Details 1 Image (s) Talley Rings Low 30mm Browning - X-bolt Hells Canyon Bronze A Pachmayr Decelerator rubber pad arguably the worlds most effective recoil-taming material graces the buttstock. And one final issue that we want to bring up is the barrel length. The .300 Win Mag also has a lower max pressure though only slightly. I've narrowed down my search for my next hunting rifle. Get gun deals, hand's on reviews, educational content and updates on law changes, daily! See specs below for the .300 Win Mag the author shot: Visit Browning to learn more about the Max Long Range by clicking Here Free-floated barrel that is bedded in the front and the rear of the action for stability and to help maintain barrel-to-stock spacing for consistent accuracy. If you already use one of these cartridge types, you might be wondering why we are not using your favorite, and undoubtedly the best, round in this comparison. Not just .300 WM to .300 WSM round, but between rounds of the same cartridge type. The .300 Win Mag rounds have an average of 80.0lb/f.s while the .300 Win Mag has an average of 77.12lb/f.s. Additionally, the cartridge can also take a variety of bullet weights. At 500 yards, the aforementioned 6.8 Western commercial round is still generating over 1,600 ft/lbs of energy. The two flattest shooting rounds are a .300 WM and a .300 WSM round while the two steepest rounds are also a .300 WM and .300 WSM round. Great comparison good depth. Here again, we do not see any significant difference in bullet drop between these two cartridges at the same yard markers that we looked at above. Just by looking at the bullet and casing specs of these two cartridges, we can begin drawing some inferences about how these two cartridges will perform. The .300 Win Mag Nosler Trophy Grade, AccuBond Long Range 190gr round, stands out to us from a hunting perspective. if(typeof(shoppingListJS3074457345619148134) == "undefined" || shoppingListJS3074457345619148134 == null || !shoppingListJS3074457345619148134) { This X-Bolt is no ordinary rifle and it is not for the ordinary hunter. I own a 300 win mag and handload 200 grain ELDX for it . Do you put in hours behind the trigger, practicing the fundamentals of marksmanship and learning to read the wind? I tried to talk him into the speed to save 0.75 lb of weight but he got the LR anyway. $1500 max budget. For large and even dangerous game this is an excellent round. Theyre crazy high BC, or just go with 180s going over 3000. The McMillan stock feels good to the hands and the vertical palm swell grip is comfortable. You must log in or register to reply here. Those heavy rounds at 1,000+ yards appear to bring the average down a good bit at this range. Browning; Item Number: 035388229; Browning X-Bolt Stalker Long Range 300 Win Mag Bolt-Action Rifle $979.99 $809.99; Brand: Browning; Item Number: 035390229; Browning A-Bolt III Hunter 300 Win Mag with Nikon 4-12x40 BDC . I was in a similar dilemma. Hits like Thors hammer. I was shooting Hornady Precision Hunter 143 gr ELD-X. If I burn out the barrels it may be wise for me to rebarrel to 300-which is an easy barrel switch. Unsubscribe at any time. Looking only at the averages, the .300 WM hold around a 50-100ft.lb advantage over the .300 WSM from the muzzle out to 500 yards. While there is overlap, there are areas where one cartridge is going to be better suited than the other. If you have any feedback or question about my articles, please submit it here, it's always appreciated! As for the rifle, nice! I'm looking at the speed in 300wsm. You will need to save your CLUB card in order to purchase this item. And with the formula for kinetic energy and what we know of the velocity between these rounds from the muzzle to 100 yards, we would expect there to be a slight increase in KE for the .300 WSM rounds at these markers. The smaller calibers shoot very well. Short magnums, which have a wider powder column, burn more uniformly and cleanly. First, these rounds have high velocities, both cartridges averaging nearly 3,000fps. The first is that all ten of these rounds group together very tightly out to 500 yards. First group with 225 eldm was .36 and factory 212s are averaging.6 to .8. OMG that bolt throw! Both Cancellara and van der Poel used top-of-the-range (for their time) Shimano Dura-Ace components, with gearing focused on a fast, flat race. If we look at individual rounds, the .300 WSM has two rounds at .45 and below while the .300 Win Mag only has one that falls below .5. The similarities in their names can confuse those not familiar with these cartridges. You can use both for the same shooting and hunting purposes. The momentum of the bullet is another indicator of penetration. My BIL has a 6.5 creed and my old man has a 6mm creed. Caliber: 300 Win Mag Action Length: Long Action Barrel Length: 26 Overall Length: 46 3/4 Length of Pull: 13 5/8 Drop at Comb: 11/16 Drop at Heel: 1/2 Weight: 7 lbs 8 oz Magazine Capacity: 3 Twist Rate: 1:8 Barrel Finish: Burnt Bronze Cerakote Stock Finish: A-TACS AU Receiver Finish: Burnt Bronze Cerakote Chamber Finish: Polished It also features a comfortable vertical grip with thumbshelf. I was seriously considering buying this but now I'm not so sure. At these ranges, all ten rounds still carry more than 3,000ft.lb of kinetic energy, and all of them maintain this energy fairly well as they move to 200 yards where they all still have well over 2,500ft.lb of energy. Then, well also try to tie everything back together at the end of the article. Both cartridges have options with .6+ BCs which are going to be intriguing for the long-range guys. This specific model is available in popular long-range cartridges from the 6mm Creedmoor to the .300 Win. The Browning X-Bolt also features a top-tang safety with bolt unlock button that allows you to open the bolt for loading or inspection with the tang safety in the safe position. To get started, click the link below to visit mymagnow.com and learn how to access your digital magazine. As we have seen with most of the other categories, there is a lot of similarity between these two cartridges. .300 Win Mag vs .308 Win Cartridge Comparison, .300 Win Mag vs .30-06 Sprg Cartridge Comparison, .300 Blackout vs .308 Win Cartridge Comparison, Beginner Firearm Safety, From Safe Storage to Safe Shooting, 7mm Rem Mag vs .30-06 Sprg Cartridge Comparison, .243 Win vs .270 Win Cartridge Comparison, Best 9mm Ammo in 2021 [Self-Defense & Target], Average Short Range Bullet Drop at 100 yards, Average Long Range Bullet Drop at 100 yards, Average Kinetic Energy (fl. Joe Kurtenbach and Caleb Giddings also look at the first-ever optics-ready carry revolvers with the new Taurus 605 and 856 T.O.R.O. Mag. was 1-9.5" and the 300 Win . However, we do see an increase in the difference between the averages of the two cartridges. The X-Bolt Hell's Canyon Long-Range Bolt-Action Rifle has all the features you need to stay concealed in arid, urban, or late autumn environments, and hit targets at long range. I put on a Vortex Crossfire II scope, cleaned the new barrel before shooting it for the first time, and I did not see the need in adjusting the trigger as it was very crisp with zero creep. This round is also top of the list when it comes to muzzle velocity. Browning X-Bolt Hells Canyon Long Range 300 Win Mag Bolt-Action Rifle with McMillan Game Scout Stock Notify Me When Available; Both hunters and target shooters use these two cartridges for long range shots. For hunters, these rounds remain above supersonic speeds, looking from the velocity data above. Again, even with more cartridges in play, we see the same trend pop up between these two cartridges. Morgan, UT 84050 The .300 WSM offered shooters the power of the popular .300 WM while using a lighter short-action rifle. Threaded muzzle brake/Suppressor ready a time-tested feature to tame the recoil of magnum calibers and all but eliminate the kick of more mild calibers, allowing shooters to observe downrange impacts. JavaScript is disabled. You'll more than likely be limited to 162-168 class bullets. You get changes in performance from the individual rounds, but its tough for us to say which cartridge gives you more of a certain ballistic or other performance component. {"notices":[ (1) . We can look back at some of the other ballistic characteristics we have already examined. lb range. Next week I'm going to stretch it out a bit and see how it does at longer ranges. The new 9mm suppressor can mount easily to any pistol barrel threaded x28 inches and doesn't compromise on sound suppression, gas blowback or recoil. As far as price goes, it depends on the individual round. I tried a lot different factory loads and the best group was about 3 moa and some were closer to 5 moa. While we will look at each separate from the others, they should all be taken into account when determining which cartridge would be more advantageous in a certain situation. "Stock Color_|_ATAC\'S AU":"36" Maybe I will build a custom some day with a proper twist to handle the bog 7s. "ItemImage467" : "https://assets.basspro.com/image/list/fn_select:jq:first(.%5B%5D%7Cselect(.public_id%20%7C%20endswith(%22main%22)))/2774534.json", Ben Voss FN Product Manager talks about the new FN SCAR 15P ultra-compact rifle-caliber pistol at SHOT Show 2023. At the 300-yard mark, we still see the rounds interspersed. Because propellant loads used by the manufacturer are not available, we went conservative with the loads using Nosler load data and kept the charge the same for each round within a cartridge. I'm most interested in 7mm RM, 300WM and 28 Nosler [this one I need to research more], have the capability to handload ammunition and do not consider myself recoil shy. Most folks wont think of the .300 WM or WSM for short-range trajectory. Everything from 150 (factory and handload) and up was 2-4MOA. However, you are likely to take shots within 300 yards, especially when it comes to hunting. Not only is it Brownings top-selling cartridge in this top-selling model, its easy on my shoulder. The Nuts & Bolts As far as comparing the two cartridges go, computer-generated data has its advantages in that these small differences are negated as well as a lot of environmental factors. It is not nearly as popular as the 300. The difference in how low the bullet sits in the casing is negligible and results in the .300 Win Mag being able to hold a greater amount of powder through the case capacity does not represent how much powder is loaded into each cartridge. "seo_url" : "https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/browning-x-bolt-hells-canyon-speed-bolt-action-hunting-rifle-270-winchester-2774534", GuysI've given my choices some extra thought. Sporter-contoured, fluted, free-floated barrel. The averages show the .300 Win Mag has around half an inch less of altitude loss at the 300 yard mark but when you look at all of the individual rounds, their distribution make all of them seem like the same cartridge type. It will severely limit your bullet seating. Your $25 Instant Credit will be automatically applied at checkout. ttg7ya . Just like what came with Browning Canyon Speed rifle. only today ! For long range shooting or chasing a bull moose, both of these cartridges, when shot with confidence and skill, are going to put meat in the freezer. Both of these cartridges can be hand loaded to give better performance specs. Mag. If so, this is the rifle for you. Beretta 3032 Tomcat [Review]: A Worthy Self-Defense Pistol? From this data, either of these cartridges are going to provide options for flat shooting rounds and probably isnt the category you will need to focus on until you start trying to decide which round you are actually going to cycle through your rifle. Both also have round options with very high ballistic coefficients which is always beneficial when you start dealing with higher wind speeds and 500+ yard shots. NOTE: Unless specifically listed as included with a firearm, accessories shown such as scopes, optical sights, rings, ring mounts, optic rails, bipod rails, ammunition, etc. Bedding job looks just fine. Length of pull was 13.66 inches, and the gun's overall length was 46.75 inches. Although I know the good ol 7 rem mag will do the same thing its just a bit too 1980s for me. 2. At the 200-yard mark, there is 0.14-inch difference between the two averages. The SCAR 15P is chambered for 5.56 NATO and, with its 7.5-inch barrel, is the most compact SCAR to date. Well delve into an extensive data set in this in-depth comparison. To adjust, simply remove the two action screws, lift off the bottom metal and turn the tension screw to increase pull weight; out to decrease. MPN: 035566227. Decreed to be lighter, smoother, stronger and more precise than anything the company currently offered, it delivered in spades. "partNumber" : "2774534", If there is no issue with the rifle, there are several 190+ grain weight WSM cartridges out there that give higher BCs than the 185grain and lighter rounds. This level of performance always commands a premium and well it should. If you want a round that remains supersonic, both the .300 WM and the .300 WSM have many viable options. In addition, it all depends on what youre shooting at. We have compiled the velocity data for all ten rounds from the muzzle out to 500 yards and graphed them here (Graph 2). Barrels on all calibers in Brownings long-range lineup stretch the tape to 26 inches, maximizing velocity potential for those long shots in gnarly winds. Sure, it's a flat shooting, deep penetrating bullet, but the long, thin bullets moving so quickly also buck the wind. {address.city}, {address.stateOrProvinceName}, {address.postalCode}, You can unsubscribe at any time. {"notice": "Notice--Firearms.
Firearms are shipped only to stores and are sold only as equipped. Also considered the .300 win mag but the ballistics are quite similar to the 7mm anyway. Does your scope base look like this? If so what grain bullet are you using. It is still less than 10 inches and when you look at the individual rounds, there are a number of .300 WM mag rounds that show trajectory perform as well or better than the top performing .300 WSM rounds. dcopas78. At 300 yards, all these rounds still have well above 2,000 ft. lbs. f/s) at 100 yards, .300 Win Mag Federal Vital-Shok Trophy Bonded 180gr, 300 Win Mag Federal MatchKing BTHP Gold Medal 190gr, .300 Win Mag Nosler Trophy Grade AccuBond Long Range 190gr, .300 Win Mag Barnes Precision Match OTM 220gr, .300 Win Mag Hornady Superformance SST 180gr, .300 WSM Winchester Expedition Big Game 180gr, .300 WSM Federal Vital-Shok Trophy Bonded Tip 165gr, .300 WSM Hornady ELD-X Precision Hunter 200gr, .300 WSM Barnes VOR-TX TTSX Boat Tail 165gr. If one doesnt reload, strictly using factory rounds, there is still a difference in favor of the 300 Win Mag. If you look individually, there are better performing rounds for both cartridges. ], Check out with Sezzle and split your entire order into. NOTE: Unless specifically listed as included with a firearm, accessories shown such as scopes, optical sights, rings, ring mounts, optic rails, bipod rails, ammunition, etc. While this energy does translate to felt recoil, it is actually quantifiable. As others have said about small calibers, the wife has an A-Bolt in .223 WSSM that shoots fine. Browning X-Bolt Hells Canyon Speed 300 Win Mag Bolt-Action Rifle with A-TACS AU Camo Stock Notify Me When Available; Brand . In this graph, the rounds from each cartridge have high ballistic coefficients while some have excellent ones. What kind of muzzle velocity are you getting. However, these two cartridges are not interchangeable. Great elk,moose,eland,nyala,bear(even cape buffalo). models. The factory bullet weights were 150, 154, 155, 3 different 160s, 162, 165, 174 and 175. Taurus Marketing Manager Caleb Giddings highlights the features of the new Taurus Raging Hunter 460 Magnum, a purpose-built revolver with a 10.5-inch barrel and an effective recoil-taming brake, with Guns & Ammo Executive Editor Joe Kurtenbach. Intriguing for the long-range guys save 0.75 lb of weight but he got the LR.... For most people, this is only five rounds for both cartridges averaging nearly.... Au Camo stock Notify me when available ; Brand 4 years of waiting Dan. With Sezzle and split your entire order into can also take a variety of bullet weights were,. Lr anyway inches, and the gun & # x27 ; ve narrowed down search... Gun & # x27 ; ll more than likely be limited to 162-168 class bullets behind the trigger practicing... You can unsubscribe at any time Tomcat [ Review ]: a Worthy Self-Defense Pistol everything... And one final issue that we want to bring up is the most SCAR... 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Hornady Precision hunter 143 gr ELD-X 300-which is an easy barrel switch all the that! Articles, please submit it here, it is not nearly as popular as the 300 Win Mag handload... Your $ 25 Instant Credit will be automatically applied at checkout extra thought the... Are likely to take shots within 300 yards, especially when it comes to muzzle velocity seo_url. Bought one and started doing some load development ten rounds generate a significant amount of recoil over... A good bit at this Range to take shots within 300 yards, wife... Appear to bring up is the barrel length if you want more momentum to push through thicker and... Drop in elevation over time give better performance specs likely hells canyon speed vs long range 300 win mag limited to 162-168 class bullets of. To give better performance specs 300 yards, the aforementioned 6.8 Western commercial round is also of. This top-selling model, its easy on my shoulder both the.300 Win Mag overlap... Nato and, with its 7.5-inch barrel, is the most compact SCAR to date Notify me when available Brand! The velocity data above do the same cartridge type the first is that all ten generate. To 5 moa 3 different 160s, 162, 165, 174 and 175 applied at checkout at. Creedmoor to the.300 Win Mag and handload 200 grain ELDX for it 'm going to stretch it a. Is only five rounds for each cartridge long-range guys address.city }, i recenly a! Closer to 5 moa one final issue that we want to bring up the. Above 2,000 ft. lbs going to stretch it out a bit too for! Submit it here, it all depends on the individual round deals, educational content and on. To take shots within 300 yards, all these rounds remain above supersonic speeds, looking from the 6mm to! Is the most compact SCAR to date were 150, 154, 155, 3 different 160s,,! 300 WSM which is an excellent round is 0.14-inch difference between the averages of the 300 tightly... Far that has never been a problem for me to rebarrel to 300-which is easy. Have options with.6+ BCs which are denser and provide more resistance to.! Issue that we want to bring up is the barrel length on what youre at... Episode 33, bucking the wind its a good listen weights were 150, 154, 155, 3 160s. Familiar with these cartridges can be hand loaded to give better performance specs in hours behind the,... We have seen with most of the same shooting and hunting purposes have many options. Ballistics are quite similar to the 7mm anyway i be able to use 300wsm with this same rifle popular the! To 300-which is an outstanding cartridge given the extra stopping power and trajectory you get from it great elk moose! Using a lighter short-action rifle was 13.66 inches, and the 300 Win Mag rifle... Your digital magazine about my articles, please submit it here, it in... Applied at checkout AccuBond long Range 190gr round, stands out to 500 yards account.. Notify me when available ; Brand has never been a problem for me factory bullet weights 150! Hells Canyon Speed rifle and game-changing rifle 150-180 gr bullets often work the best of both:! For each cartridge have high ballistic coefficients of the.300 Win Mag vs 30-06 rounds still have well above ft.. Options with.6+ BCs which are going to be intriguing for the hunter who likes to,... And hunting purposes 33, bucking the wind its a good listen going over 3000 Mag also a... Came with Browning Canyon Speed a best-selling and game-changing rifle 6.8 Western commercial round is still a difference in of! Be hand loaded to give better performance specs to rebarrel to 300-which is an excellent round Sezzle and split entire! So far that has never been a problem for me for it for people., burn more uniformly and cleanly tightly out to 500 yards, all rounds. Ten of these cartridges ol 7 rem Mag will do the same shooting and hunting purposes supersonic speeds, from! Data above group was about 3 moa and some were closer to 5 moa,. Camo stock Notify me when available ; Brand and some were closer to 5.... A Worthy Self-Defense Pistol practicing the fundamentals of marksmanship and learning to read the wind its a good bit this! Others have said about small calibers, the first thing youll notice hells canyon speed vs long range 300 win mag that all rounds. The 300-yard mark, we still see the same cartridge type some of the.300 Win Mag has average... Giddings also look at velocity, trajectory, and ballistic coefficients while some have excellent ones shooters the of... Register to reply here never been a problem for me handling wise in difference! Individually, there is overlap, there are better performing rounds for each cartridge have ballistic. //Www.Cabelas.Com/Shop/En/Browning-X-Bolt-Hells-Canyon-Speed-Bolt-Action-Hunting-Rifle-270-Winchester-2774534 '', GuysI 've given my choices some extra thought high ballistic coefficients of.300. Nato and, with its 7.5-inch barrel, is the rifle for you a best-selling game-changing! Of penetration that all ten rounds generate a significant amount of recoil with over 24ft cape buffalo.. It depends on the individual round overall length was 46.75 inches was shooting Hornady Precision hunter 143 ELD-X... Having my Father in law help me with all this since he has 20 years experience good the... With all this since he has 20 years experience and trajectory you get from it popular long-range cartridges from 6mm... Down a good bit at this Range hunters, these rounds have an average 80.0lb/f.s... This specific model is available in popular long-range cartridges from the 6mm Creedmoor to the.300 WSM offered the! Available at authorized Browning dealers andhere on Browning.com similarity between these two cartridges on! Try to tie everything back together at the first-ever optics-ready carry revolvers the... Large hells canyon speed vs long range 300 win mag, you want more momentum to push through thicker hide and bones which! Yards appear to bring up is the barrel length its just a bit and how... This but now i 'm going to be intriguing for the same type. One account hells canyon speed vs long range 300 win mag Capital one account information our newsletter and get gun deals, educational content and updates law. And learning to read the wind its a good listen and cleanly is actually quantifiable hand loaded to give performance! Or WSM for short-range trajectory we will look at velocity, trajectory, and the vertical palm swell grip comfortable... And get gun deals, educational content and updates on law changes, daily of. Round that remains supersonic, both cartridges averaging nearly 3,000fps also has a lower pressure... Is also top of the bullet is another indicator of penetration and learning to read the wind its a listen., most would agree that the 150-180 gr bullets often work the best both. 200-Yard mark, there is a less pronounced drop in elevation over time wife... And 856 T.O.R.O company currently offered, it depends on what youre shooting at long 190gr... 0.14-Inch difference between the two cartridges averaging.6 to.8 factory loads and the best of both:... Between the averages of the bullet is hells canyon speed vs long range 300 win mag indicator of penetration that remains supersonic both. Performing rounds hells canyon speed vs long range 300 win mag each cartridge have high velocities, both cartridges: (! Not just.300 WM while using a lighter short-action rifle push through thicker hide and bones, which have wider... Gun & # x27 ; ll more than likely be limited to 162-168 class bullets is overlap, there overlap. { address.stateOrProvinceName }, { address.postalCode }, i recenly purchased a 300wm, would i be to! `` seo_url '': [ ( 1 ) in-depth comparison 856 T.O.R.O to take shots 300. I be able to use 300wsm with this same rifle only is it Brownings top-selling cartridge in this section we. One doesnt reload, strictly using factory rounds, there are areas where one cartridge is going to better...