Copy link. Elyon The term "Elyon", which occurs 53 times in the Old Testament, means "highest". They both play the same role: leading their people into war to conquer surrounding peoples and territory. Third, Mesha demonstrated his success in the region by subordinating deities and religious materials foreign to Moab before Chemosh: "I took from thence the vessels of Yahweh and dragged them before Chemosh" (Gibson 1971, No. Of all the Molochs, Jehovah becomes supreme, and the other Molochs are forgotten, lost for ever; he is the God of gods. The Israelite god was Yahweh (MI line 18 refers to "vessels of Yahweh" plundered from Nebo; 2 Kings 3:10 records Jehoram's lament that Yahweh intended to give them into the hands of Moab: 'Then the king of Israel said, "Alas! Chemosh seems to have also had a taste for blood. He was called by the ancient Israelites as "the abomination of Moab". 1. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. The Very First Bible: S o begins one of the most extraordinary ancient documents ever found. Yahweh appears for the first time in Genesis 2:4 and a total of 6,828 times in the Bible. However, the theme of promised land to a people by that peoples deity was a commonplace among the geopolitical and literary landscape of the ancient Near Eastern world. God, whether existent or not, is only ever conceived, perceived, imaged, and cited through, by, and for man! You yourself paraphrased and said that the text is saying //I will fight for you and you will throw down every city.//, Thus says Yahweh, Elisha says, This is only a trifle in the sight of Yahweh, for he will also hand Moab over to you. Moab destroys the temple of Yahweh - shows us the importance of the gods to political entities at the time. See, The children of Lot dispossessed the Emim, thereby rightfully possessing the land of Moab as decreed to them by Yahweh, The children of Esau dispossessed the Horites, thereby rightfully possessing the land of Edom as decreed to them by Yahweh, The children of Ammon dispossessed the Zamzummim, thereby rightfully possessing the land of Ammon as decreed to them by Yahweh. This may be seen in the Moabite Stone inscriptions where Chemosh is also referred to as "Asthor-Chemosh." Yahweh occurs 165 times in the book of Genesis and 31 times in the first five chapters of Exodus before Exodus 6:3. The etymology of "Chemosh" is unknown. The destroyer, subduer, or fish-god, the god of the Moabites (Numbers 21:29; Jeremiah 48:7, 13, 46).The worship of this god, "the abomination of Moab," was introduced at Jerusalem by Solomon (1 Kings 11:7), but was abolished by Josiah (2 Kings 23:13).On the "Moabite Stone" (q.v. Matthew Henry suggests that the sacrifice was inspired by Satan. He attributes his successes to his god, to whom he has dedicated a lofty shrine (high place) at "Qarcho. Begin! Was Yahweh one of the Moloch Gods? How frequent and widespread such occurrences were is difficult to judge. compare all religions to the jewish religion. The specific characteristics of Chemosh are not clear in many respects. Thank you for all your hard work here. Only for Israel there was one legitimate object of devotion, to desert whom was treason (Smith 1908). The god (ha-elohim) who answers by fire--he is God (ha-elohim)." The specific characteristics of Chemosh are not clear in many respects. ( , ) ". It is entirely within his abilities. Genesis 1 as a Test Case, The Growing Problem of Biblical Illiteracy in Our Country, The Biblical Texts on Their Own Terms Versus the Bible on Its Terms: Genesis 1 and 2 as a Case Study, Morals Dont Come From God: For This I Know Because the Bible Tells Me So, #178. This implies that there is a source of divinity outside of their god. Does it fit or will we once again find a belief system incompatible with Christianity - forcing us to ask the question 'Whose God?' Notes: The Very First Bible: https://www . Mixing of religions, worship of many gods. We, from our 21st century vantage point and hopefully from a knowledge of ancient Near Eastern literary cultural norms, can see that this was a theological interpretive grid employed by all cultures of the ancient world to make sense of the geopolitical forces that enacted upon that world. Meet Isaac in the Bible: Abraham's Miracle Son, The Story of Abraham and Isaac Bible Study Guide, A Profile of Abraham of the Jewish Nation, Meet Adam: The First Man and Father of the Human Race, 10 Commandments Bible Study: Honoring Your Parents, Parting the Red Sea Bible Story Study Guide. Israel may have been too vigorous in pursuing the war, pushing the Moabite king to this extreme action and causing Jehovah's wrath. Mar 4. What is the source of your belief, do you think? Chemosh was apparently associated with the Semitic mother-goddess Ashtar. The Mesha Stele contains the earliest mention of YHVH, the God of the Israelites, outside of the Bible. Likewise, whatever the Lord our God has given us, we will possess. He is one of many gods, and he is a god that can be beaten. God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the gods: 2 How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked? I have given Ar to the descendants of Lot as a possession." One rendering of the name of the father of Mesha, "Chemosh-melek," indicates the possibility that Chemosh and the Ammonite god Moloch (melek) were one and the same deity, sometimes referred to as Chemosh-Moloch, a similar construction to the Israelite "Yahweh-Elohim." Mesha identifies himself as the son of Chemosh-melek (alternatively (Chemosh[t] the king), who had ruled over Moab for 30 years. (Num 21:10 vs Num 33:41), #166. Just for the records, YHWH could destroy anything that he created or co-created with His Son. I often get asked why if Im not a believer, do I study these texts? The 7th century Deuteronomic Tradition (Deut 2:18 & 29), 3. The Moabites suffer a series of military defeats. And this theological grid that dictated that ones cultural deity controlled the events of history and the granting and losing of lands (blessings and curses) was the narrative that ancient Near Eastern cultures projected onto their realities, and which conversely informed their realities! {1} Especially singled out for censure by critics is the conquest of Canaan, the land promised to Abraham, by Joshua and the . 221:27-30; Jer. #343. It's interesting that you chose not to address the evidence presented, but instead to repeat your own belief, apart from the evidence, that your system is sound. //, It does NOT say "the Israelites became afraid and stopped fighting.". God promised Israel victory if they fought, and all this story is saying is that Israel decided to turn their back on victory when total victory was granted. Northern Moab: land Chemosh decrees to the Moabites OR Yahweh decrees to the Israelites? They later developed a tradition of henotheism, in which Yahweh alone was to be worshiped by Israel, but other nations also had their own gods, one of whom was Chemosh. If so, Chemosh probably stood in the position of Asthar's husband, as did El to Asherah and Baal to Astarte. If you look at the events of the story, when Israel fought Moab, they crushed it in almost comedically epic and glorious fashion, but when the king sacrificed his son on the wall, the Israelites became afraid and stopped fighting. Yahweh admits that Chemosh is more powerful than Yahweh when Chemosh receives the Moabite king's son as a human sacrifice. 23 Now since the Lord, the God of Israel, has driven the Amorites out before his people Israel, what right have you to take it over? 25:3 is essentially the same god as Chemosh, who is identified with the name (or place) Baal-meon above. In this monumental inscription, several people, places, and events of the Bible were definitively confirmed, including King Mesha of Moab, King Omri of Israel, King David, a reference to Yahweh as the God of Israel, and the successful rebellion of the Moabites against Israel. The Old Testament tells of a human sacrifice to the god Chemosh apparently causing "great divine wrath" against the army of Israel, followed by their withdrawal from the war with the Moabites. Do the Israelites travel from Hor to Oboth OR to Zalmonah? Rather the Moabites lost their land because Chemosh was angered at them (the Babylonian cylinder seal makes the same claim about the Babylonians losing their land to the Persians because Marduk was angry that they forsook his laws and commandments). While you have produced a pretty good apologetic as to how Chemosh could seemingly defeat Yahweh, the entire premise of Yahweh craving war is flawed. I know first-born sons were important to the ancients, as far as inheritance and having an heir to a king's throne. The Israelite judge Jephthah had offered Yahweh a similar sacrificehis virgin daughterto fulfill a sacred vow he had made to God prior to gaining victory over the Ammonites (Judges 11). Did the Israelites travel 300 km to battle Midian and return to the plains of Moab all in the 11th month of the 40th year of the Wilderness period OR not? The latter also goes hand-and-hand with the cited poem in Numbers 21:28-30 wherein Chemosh is also mentioned as the god of the Moabites and their land. Here as well, the Jewish people learned from the king of Moab to engage in human sacrifice.en Levi. This does not seem likely since Jehovah had promised Israel would prevail over the Moabites. So, too, of all the Greek gods, Zeus comes to . You are literally making that up and not allowing the text to say what it is clearly saying. And I killed all the people of the city as a sacrifice for Chemosh and for Moab And Chemosh said to me, "Go, take Nebo from Israel." For more information, please see our She would only be breaking her promise if I called her that day I was supposed to and she didn't go on a date with me. In 2 Kings 3:27 we find that human sacrifice was part of the rites of Chemosh. King Mesha of Moab erected the Moabite Stone to his god Chemosh to commemorate Mesha's breaking of Israel's domination, which, he says, had lasted 40 years and was allowed by Chemosh because he was "angry with his land." This revolt of Moab is usually considered to be related to the events recorded in the third chapter of 2 Kings. [1], Some thing that it was the king of Edom's son, not Mesha's own son, that was sacrificed but there is little support for that in the text. (Job 38:7 states that the heavenly host was present at creation.). Angels are Elohim. At any point Yahweh could have provided additional prophecy that the Israelites have not heeded. Ugaritic mythology plainly states that the head of its pantheon, El (who, like the God of the Bible, is also referred to as El Elyon, the "Most High") fathered seventy sons, thereby specifying the number of the "sons of El" (Ugaritic, bn il). First, he was Moab's national god. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Chemosh, ancient West Semitic deity, revered by the Moabites as their supreme god. [4] [1], Other argue that Jehovah was angry because of the sacrifice but this does not account for Israel's defeat and withdrawal. There is no sense whatsoever that one god is true, and the other false. Its a theological narrative construct meant to make sense and explain the world they live in. Read your description of the stele, and I see how the Moabite theology of land promised to them by Chemosh mirrors the Israelite's view of land in Canaan being promised to them by Yahweh. Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites ( Judges 11:24 ). Learn Religions, Nov. 12, 2021, learnreligions.com/chemosh-lord-of-the-moabites-117630. We might even conclude that reality for them, as for us, is never an objective thing out there, but is always understood subjectively: We impose a narrative, be it theological or otherwise, onto reality or the reality that we perceive, in a humanly attempt to understand it and our place in it. Here we see a direct parallel to the policy of holy war sometimes practiced by the Israelite commanders Joshua, Saul, David and others, in which no booty or slaves could be taken, but a city's whole population would be killed in Yahweh's name. To cite this article click here for a list of acceptable citing formats.The history of earlier contributions by wikipedians is accessible to researchers here: The history of this article since it was imported to New World Encyclopedia: Note: Some restrictions may apply to use of individual images which are separately licensed. Listen to Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:26 from First Bible Network. Do the Israelites set out for the wilderness of Paran OR Hazeroth? Chemosh was the supreme Moabite deity who was believed to bring victory to his people when they honored him properly, but allowed their enemies to prevail when they fell into sin From this we can deduce a number of probable facts about Chemosh. Put another away, 'Yahweh is an Elohim, but no other Elohim are Yahweh - he is NOT a 'species equal'. Elohim, singular Eloah, (Hebrew: God), the God of Israel in the Old Testament. Instead, it makes sense that it was the Moabite deity who would respond to a Moabite human sacrifice and fight against the Israelite military coalition. Yahweh said Moab will be handed over and you shall conquer every fortified city. In 2 Kings 3:27 Yahweh not only admits the existence of the Moabite god, Chemosh. King Josiah destroyed the Israelite branch of the cult (2 Kings 23). (The Deuteronomic tradition preserves these borders as well, but the Priestly tradition does not, seeing instead all of the land from the Zered to the Jabbok as Moabite.). Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Only later, when subsequent biblical authors began to embrace monotheism, were the original writings suppressed. I wonder how El Elyon divided up the earth among Yahweh's sixty-nine brothers? They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. no religions talk of their gods ever losing battles. in accordance with New World Encyclopedia standards. Additionally, both Judges 11:24 and the Heshbon poem of Num 21:28-30 also acknowledge Chemosh as god of the land of Moab. (Lev 7:20-21 vs Deut 12:20-22), #143. If Israel had pressed forward, they would've destroyed Moab. Moabite King Mesha. And its fascinating and instructive to learn of these things from this perspective. Overview: A discussion on the different opinions and archeological evidence for the origins of the Israelite God YHWH, as well as a discussion of how to square it with belief in Judaism.. Press J to jump to the feed. The God of Israel vs. Chemosh the god of Moab. In 1967, Raphael Patai was . As such, some have hypothesized that the God YHWH originated in Northern Israel, while . The Priestly writers reworking of the Yahwist material of Genesis 1-11, Being Honest to the Bibles Texts, Their Authors, and Their Beliefs, Brief Interview with Wipf & Stock about my, Defending the Biblical Texts: What It Entails and Why Secularists Ought to Care. Smith says When Naaman begged a little earth that he might make a Yahweh-sanctuary in Damascus, how easy it would have been for Elisha to instruct him that the whole earth is Yahweh's and that the soil of Damascus is as truly his as the soil of Palestine. 1. This rules out Jehovah's omnipotence. Scholars contend that both the 7th century Deuteronomist and the 6th century Priestly writer reworked in different fashion the earlier Yahwist-Elohist tradition. If anyone's conclusions don't hold water it's yours. Citing this older poem allows the Yahwist to counter the claims made in the Mesha stele (below) by claiming that the Israelites under Omri took the land from the Amorites not the Moabites. But that is mankind! 3) In Psalm 82 Yahweh depicts himself as God over all and kills his 69 brother gods. Jephthah is disputing the right of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest. So the Bible has lied, do you not believe Yahwey was defeated by Chemosh? Just as he confused Chemosh and Molech in the previous section, so now he confused Yahweh with Chemosh and Molech. Chemosh was the most powerful God worshipped by the Moabites and by some Israelites. Chemosh and Yahweh were cut from the same dusty, desert cloth as all the other blood-drinking gods of the ancient Semites, and the idea of human sacrifice was never far from their superstitious minds. [3], The Geneva Study Bible suggests that the sacrifice moved "Israelites hearts of pity to depart" causing their defeat or repulsed in horror, rather than the influence of Chemosh. In 2 Kings 3, Moab was a vassal to Israel, and it decided to rebel against Israel. Within the text, the inscriber mentions Chemosh twelve times. I don't imagine that this will convince you, of course, but it's still adds to the overall discussion and gives added insight as to how we Jews have traditionally understood a potentially problematic episode. Now my Christian fundamentalist reader might counter my many invocations to Humanities and my focus on man, mankind, by chastising me for not mentioning God. It's actually simple, what you are talking about. 48:45-46), regards the Moabites as the children of Chemosh, and also calls them "the people of Chemosh." But I looked down on him and on his house. So let's first correct the above translation by translating it literally from the Hebrew. Except youre ignoring OPs argument. Having said that, we've seen numerous examples of foreign nations defeating Israel that were not equated with that national deity defeating Yahweh. Please, How would the Pre-Nicene Christians view the tumultuous events of today? In the same way, much of the prophetic literature of the Bible claims that Israel and later Judah had lost its land because Yahweh was angered at them for forsaking his laws and commandments. Indeed Judges 11:24 speaks of Chemosh as the god of the Ammonites. I also want to thank all the non-apologists such as John Kesler for their contributions. Rather than just defeat a nation through reclaiming their cities and killing inhabitants, Mesha . "I am Mesha, son Chemosh[it], king of Moab, the Dibonite.". As noted in the footnotes of the NET bible: [2]. Yahweh would have delivered Israel anyway, without Jephthah's . And perceiving this we thus move way beyond the confines of one text, one God, one perspective, one religion. Each of these texts then, the Yahwist too, was written as a means to legitimate possession of northern Moab by making claims to divine right. Yahweh is not some sort of omnipotent being in much of the Bible. The gods of the Moabites and Ammonites accepted human burnt offerings as a sign of total dedication (2Kings, 3), but such offerings were an abomination to the Lord. (Judges 11). Unless early Hebrew religion taught that there were more than 70 gods, Chemosh was probably one of the 69 brothers of Yahweh. We know what happened at this battle from independent historical record. [8] This defence is an ad-hoc Loki's wager by unreasonably refusing to accept the verses implications. Little is known about Chemosh; although King Solomon of Israel built a sanctuary to him east of Jerusalem (1 Kings 11:7), the shrine was later demolished by King Josiah (2 Kings 23:13). Rather than just defeat a nation through reclaiming their cities and killing inhabitants, Mesha Nov. 12, 2021 learnreligions.com/chemosh-lord-of-the-moabites-117630. Every fortified city Israel would prevail over the Moabites mentions Chemosh twelve times and causing Jehovah wrath. The king of Moab and he is god ( ha-elohim ). first correct the translation. We thus move way beyond the confines of one text, the Jewish people learned from the king Moab. Among Yahweh 's sixty-nine brothers ancient West Semitic deity, revered by the Moabites as god... Moabite Stone inscriptions where Chemosh is more powerful than Yahweh when Chemosh the. Mesha Stele contains the earliest mention of YHVH, the Dibonite. & quot ; am... 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