payne's grey vs indigopayne's grey vs indigo

Rose ( PV19 not the Violet that has the same number) gives either a brighter Prussian that looks more like a Phthalo Blue or a purple. Closest to a primary blue in that it is neither 'greenish' nor 'purplish', Cobalt is a lovely but expensive pigment. On the other hand if we all thought the same life would be very boring. There isn't a simple answer as it dependsDo you prefer single pigment colours or are you happy with mixed pigments? If so, what shades can be used? It might be that once upon a time when it was first concocted by the artist it was named after, it may not have included a black, but nowadays it does. Yes, it's a variable one, for sure - the M. Graham one is much more blue, while the Sennelier one is more neutral, and has, I believe, the same pigments as the daniel smith neutral tint. Submit your current paintings, give and receive critiques. Grey is even spelt differently, `grey' or `gray'! The closest is probably phthalo blue green shade - generally made with PB15 or PB15:3. Payne's Grey is semi-transparent. Worked great. Thanks for comments Gali and welcome. Thanks http://www.danielsmith.com/Itemi-284-600-179, This topic has 30 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated. Your opinion to me is a deciding factor. Like the best pencil sketches do.so I love to do landscapes in Paynes grey too. Because of its transparency, it is the blackest or darkest black on the color palette and its ideal for mixing with other transparent colors when you dont want to give up their transparency. Greys are easy to mix in a variety of ways - some that you probably don't want! What are your thoughts on this color? Red= 29.4%. celebrity, straight. Chromatic Black was developed in this spirit of a mixed black. Sennelier PB60Indanthrene Blue + PBk7Lamp Black + PB15:1Phthalo Blue Ultramarine Blue Watercolours: French Ultramarine Permanent (RS) - Da Vinci, Ultramarine Blue - Da Vinci, Ultramarine (Green Shade) - Da Vinci, French Ultramarine - Daler Rowney, Permanent Blue - Daler Rowney. I wonder if they even read the pigments on the tubes before giving this advice - especially the ones who specifically say don't use black to darken another colour. But a 15ml tube will make up 5 or 6 half pans and will last a pretty long time. But I prefer ultramarine as a basic blue due to its liftability. Virgil Carter This might be the pigment of choice if you want a black-like pigment with a stronger color bias than regular black. watercolour sketches, Winsor & Newton limited edition watercolours. Indigo and Paynes Gray are the same mixture of pigments. Smalt Genuine is an interesting very warm blue - almost a violet, made in a limited edition by Winsor and Newton. Payne's Grey, as the labels on All my tubes of Payne's Grey in oil, watercolour, and acrylic spell it, began it's existence in the late 18th century as a mixture of Prussian Blue (called Iron Blue at the time), Yellow Ochre, and Crimson Lake, on the palette of English waterco. Ive stopped buying indigo for obvious reasons (to me). You can also get a lovely deep black with perm. Indigo, with its more-blue than purple, rich color has been associated with of intuition and perception and is helpful in opening the third eye. I mixed an indigo with ultramarine and burnt sienna recently and have used a lot of it. It's also cleaner to mix with other colours.The other consideration is how often will you use it and what other colours would you mix it with? Platinum is a gray-white, paler color that looks much like the metal known as platinum. It may or may not work for others. The Primatek colour is far more subtle and beautiful when washed down and when used more thickly. 16 talking about this. Paynes Greywith a touch of white creates the color of storm clouds and the last color mixed before plein air painters take shelter. My Youtube videos, WATCHWOMAN Blog She even met her now husband, Pete Chatmon, on the set of Grey's Anatomy, and the couple got married in 2019. AC (aliz. Black= 49%. The paint consists of PB27, Prussian Blue and PV19 Quin Rose. Other blacks cool-off in tints. Painting is not everything in life - but without painting everything is nothing! if you dont like to use dry watercolor, you can get an empty paint tube to store your chromatic black and youll have fresh paint whenever you need.. if you really want to get a convenient black from M. Graham, I suggest Neutral Tint, its made up of PV19 and PG7, Quin Red and Pthalo Green B.S.. so its a chromatic black, while Paynes Grey is a mix of PB29 and PBk9, Ultramarine Blue and Ivory Black, so its not a chromatic black. "You can say any foolish thing to a dog, and the dog will give you a look that says, 'My God, you're right! Payne's Grey tends to divide opinion amongst watercolor painters. Like its partner, green apatite genuine, B.A.Genuine is a beautiful colour that is fun to use and play with and mix with other colours. out of the tube Mijello G.M. Latest Blue Lagoon Nude updates. Very intense . If I want a dark black I go to a green and a purple mix. Theres absolutely no standardization as you can see. My Facebook Gallery I have it in my home palette instead of phthalo blue GS just because I like it more - it can be the perfect colour for our often cloudless Sydney skies. https://www.savoieartist.com/ E W Wilcox, I have M.Graham Nuetral Tint. McCreary took a short break at the start of season 18 to give birth to their first. Payne's grey is a dark blue grey that has long been considered similar to another colour of a similar origin called neutral tint. You must be logged in to reply to this topic. But the other blues contain other kind of pigments. Emily Payne Work Experience and Education. Home Forums Explore Media Watercolor The Learning Zone Paynes grey vs Neutral Tint. All the Stars in the Sky, Oil on canvas, 60x 60, 152 x 152cm James Austin Murray Related Posts: It is granulating, but a beautiful dark blue and mixes very well with greens. It has a moderate tinting strength, so it doesnt overwhelm mixtures, making it a good all-around mixing black. The whole point of buying watercolor paints is to explore and find the ones which work best for ones own painting approach. Indigo PB29, PB27, PBk7 , paper Arches 300grm . May I ask what your opinion is on this? Hello HanaB. There areanumber of really good combinations for this: Burnt Sienna and Ultramarine Blue, Sap Green and Alizarin Crimson are examples. Its my go-to gray and black. Now that artists are being more conscious of those things and wanting to ensure the longevity of their original works, they're not wanting to use convenience mixes with fugitive colours like prussian blue and crimson lake, and the easiest alternative was just to use black. Payne's grey is a blue-grey color named after the artist William Payne. Meine Seiten - My website I hung a god number in our new home and give away some. If you decide to use Paynes Grey, and I have it my palette, it is worth looking at swatches across brands. If just for stormy skies, then perhaps Lunar Black will do. Lamp Black is a blue black that is lightfast, permanent and opaque. Payne's grey is a very dark blue-grey used in painting. AC + FUB (French Ultramarine blue). Ultramarine Blue Watercolours: Ultramarine Light - Mission Gold, Ultramarine Deep - Mission Gold, Ultramarine Blue Deep - Old Holland, Olutramarine Blue - Old Holland, French Ultramarine Light Extra - Old Holland. See you next week. CharMing Art -- "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art." I just laugh that these people get up on their high horse about not adding black to darken things and then recommend all the black-containing convenience mixes instead. I have one, but with Ultramarine in the palette, I realise I never reach for it. There are two other Phthalo-like pigments from Holbein, Hydrangea Blue and Caribbean Blue. ", But alas, you were mentioning watercolors. Some Payne's Grays, such as those made by Winsor and Newton (PB15/PBk6PV), are actually made with three pigments. Some stunning stuff here. Post resources such as tutorials, ask questions, learn about and the art of watercolor! Chanel Grey & Isiah Maxwell in Hard Anal School Girl, Scene #01 - DarkX. Thank you Jane for the very useful and interesting reply. Isn't it strange how such divergent views prevail. ETA: I like to make my paints darker by actually adding in the complimentary color. All black colours look flat compared to it. 46 views, 11 likes, 1 loves, 0 comments, 0 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Art by Linnea Broling: Paynes gray and Indigo flowers Uni pin fineliners and White nights watercolor on Arches paper. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Daler Rowney FW Ink 29.5ml Payne's Grey at the best online prices at eBay! Home Forums Explore Media Watercolor Palette Talk No indigo. It has replaced Prussian blue on my color palette. (Sap and Hookers Green are also examples of this level of variation). For some painters, the use of black straight-from-a-tube has been discouraged. I don't tend to use black pigments except for special purposes, and the black pigment used in Lunar Blue is my favourite due to its amazing granulation. Genuine Cerulean PB35 is slightly warmer than my preferred Cerulean Chromium PB36 DS. The relative opacity or transparency, tinting strength, and color temperature of a black all influence how it will behave on our palettes and in our paintings. Smalt blue is the centuries old name for cobalt blue as smalt is finely ground cobalt blue glass.As most cobalt blues are hues W&N has differentiated their genuine cobalt blue by using the word Smalt .The other smalt blue genuine by DS has barely any pigment . I really like Daniel Smiths PrimaTek Sodalite Genuine: Most color theory is confusing at best and terrible at worst. [citation needed] The colour is named after William Payne, who painted watercolours in the late 18th century, who most likely developed the colour while trying to produce a mixer that was less intense than black. Ivory Black is semi-transparent. payne's gray noun pnz- often capitalized P : a grayish to dark grayish blue Word History Etymology after William Payne, flourished 1800 English artist, its inventor Love words? However, theories suggest that Payne made the colour in the attempts to find a replacement for black when he taught watercolour, since black was the tradtional mixer. ***This color granulates for textured washes. Pigment: Titanium dioxide (PW 6) Vehicle: Alkali refined linseed oil Colour exploration - 4 bright, non-granulating wat Ultramarine and Oranges - looking for a neutralisi Ultramarine, Mid yellow and Magenta - a gorgeous b Colour exploration - Super bright 6 colour palette Colour exploration - a single pigment colour wheel, Daniel Smith watercolour - full range - updated, Winsor & Newton Watercolours - full range, White Nights 2019 full range, with 2020 and 2021 updates. I have used Burnt Sienna and Ult.Blue, which I really like, 'Tis the set of the sails and not the gales [2] In Payne's own work, it was primarily applied to the middle distance to produce said atmospheric effect. Color in the absence of light. You have mentioned other comparison charts (purples, earth yellows, etc.) Alexis Tae in Alexis Tae's First Time Being tortured in Grueling Bondage - HogTied. Answer (1 of 2): No. So, anytime someone tells me that theyve been using Indigo in their paintings, I dont really know what those colours are in the mix behind the colour name. Some use it extensively, while others avoid it completely. Powered by, National coffee day. You must there are over 200,000 words in our free online dictionary, but you are looking for one that's only in the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary. Same with Neutral tint. This color is perfect because it is light enough to work in almost any space with any decor style. This popular color is valuable in figurative and landscape painting. Platinum. Prussian Blue MG, Prussian Blue W&N, Prussian Blue DS, Prussian Blue DV, Kyanite Genuine, blue Apitite Genuine, Azurite Genuine, Smalt Genuine, Lapis Lazuli Genuine, Vivianite Genuine, Sodalite Genuine (all Daniel Smith). It has brown-taupe undertones. However as I said it seems to work well. M Grahams Paynes grey is not fugitive. Thanks for comment Magnificom. Lunar Blue is made of the highly granulating Lunar Black with phthalo blue and is wonderful for special effects. So if you prefer non-granulating colours, Phthalo blue RS is a good option, but I tend to teach that phthalo Blue GS is a more useful cool mixing blue with ultramarine as a warm blue. The vest, tie and background in this were all painted with it. Landscapes washed with Payne's gray look moody and damp, foreboding and quiet. This comment has been removed by the author. I have it as an 'extra'. Therefore, we urge product users to carefully read the label, instructions and product information for each product and to test each application to ensure all individual project requirements are met particularly when developing ones own technique. [8], Of the various tones of Payne's Grey shown on the web page of the Ridgway color list, the color displayed in the color box above matches most closely the color called, "Professional Watercolour | Winsor & Newton", "ISCC-NBS Dictionary of Colo(u)r Names (1955)", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Payne%27s_grey&oldid=1149811616, This page was last edited on 14 April 2023, at 15:34. I was using Atelier Interactive acrylics: PY74 Transparent Yellow (which is Arylamide, GS) and PB29+PBk7.I needed a dark green rock wall behind a waterfall, with plenty of variation and dark shadows. I have a couple. Thanks for the thoughts on Indigo. Its not any more though as dark as when I bought it as natural Indigo dye fades gradually from textiles even if you dont wash them with water. Now you can find a similar shade! I have a tube of it and love it, but the PR177 in it is fugitive. Also would either make sense if I already have DS moonglow? OK..( oh what youve made me doing now!! ) The CMYK color codes, used in printers, are C:33 M:0 Y:0 K:70. Since not much is known about Payne's history the origins of the colour are equally as unknown. Product Description. [2] A recipe listed in the 20th century, called for indigo instead of Prussian blue, and now it appears to be made of mixing ultramarine, or an artificial ultramarine with a carbon based black. I use Winton oilS, and the mix of mid tones of grey and green that you can achieve with paynes grey is pretty impressive. neutral tint is better if you want to dull other colors. What colour! It can help you focus and meditate more effectively. It is only on a basis of knowledge that we can become free to compose naturally. Mijello Mission Gold PBk7Lamp Black; PB15:3Phthalo Blue; PV19Quinacridone Violet . I have made swatches to have a sample on how I want it to look like, and then I mix the two colours by adding little by little the two colours until I get the proper hue that matches with my swatches. Sherwin Williams Repose Gray 7015. Maimeriblus Faience Blue (Antraquinone, PB60) Heres a discussion of the color. Thank you very much for your generosity .The information is a great help to me ..Just recently taken up watercolour painting ..and you cover the essential information. I will try all your suggestions and definitely the sodalite and a mix with Quin Violet. In Daniel Smith's Payne's Gray, he has combined PB29 (aka Ultramarine) and PBk9 (aka Ivory Black). On mixing Payne's Grey and Yellow.Very, very successful. 18. The main difference between the two of them is that Payne's grey has a more lilac shadow, and therefore a warmer tint. If I need a phthalo blue GS colour I just add phthalo green. Some artists prefer cobalt to the deeper Ultramarine as a basic blue. And as an alternative to a tubed black, many painters choose to mix their own blacks. If capturing the coolness of shadows is an important consideration in your work, consider shading colors with Payne's Grey. DANIEL SMITH Payne's Blue Gray is similar to our bluer Indigo, but like our original Payne's Gray, it is semi-transparent rather than transparent. There is a range of colors called livid colors that combine the colors blue and gray. Consider Van Dyke Brown for creating shades of skin tones. Mixing your own Indigo ensures a consistency that you can eventually mix up without thinking about it too much. In W/N paints Working Sketchbook pages - Fountain Pen and Drawin Last couple of days to support The Perfect Sketchbook. Whew! [7], Due to the fact that William Payne was the person who created Payne's grey, a significant amount of his works include the shade. Another alternative to using [indigo/sepia/black] is to look at your existing palette for a given painting, then add something that might not be dark by itself, but will give you a dark result in a mixture. The loons in my signature (click on them) are done with these two colours, plus the red for their eyes! Hill Country: Morning Breaks, No. Grays are an explosion of reflective . This from Bruce McEvoy : " The watercolourists four traditional shadow colors were Neutral Tint, Payne's Gray, Indigo (See the Indigo convenience mixtures) and Sepia (see the convenience mixtures under Pbr7)" Pigment information for Winsor & Newton is PB15 (Blue), PBk6 ( Black) and PV19 (Quinacridone Rose or Red), in other words a blue, black . [2], Many different recipes of Payne's grey have existed due to the fact that the shade is a composite colour. When I first began painting, I used Payne's Gray all the time and loved it unless it accidentally touched yellow and then made puce green on my page. @ Virgil Ive tried the combination you use too but didnt give me the proper results. [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Pam Blue= 51%. I haven't used it yet in watercolors but I will definitely buy the paynes grey pan to add to my colors collection. I already have colours such as ultramarines, ceruleans, cobalts, phthalos, indanthrones and the Primatek's Jadeite Genuine and Green Apatite Genuine so I would most likely be mixing with colours like these and of course oranges/browns.Thanks again for your reply.James. I ordered the PDF version of your updated bookI really wish it could have been the ebook but it's only made for iPad and I have a Samsung s2 tablet and I thought I could use the kindle app but nomaybe it can be changed in the future as the Samsung tablet's are winning the tablet wars and I pads are selling less and less according to appleOK time to dive into these beautiful charts :), I understand, however the Mac/iPad allows a 'fixed format' so the words and images don't disconnect. Here are the latest batch, a very varied collection, which hopefully has something for everybody. I appreciate all the options. The S. Quiller example is in between. QoR PBk7Lamp Black + PB15:3Phthalo Blue + PV19Quinacridone Violet To Mix a warmer dark green: Mix equal proportions of New Gamboge and Paynes Grey. Hi Jane - I like having cerulean in my palette for skies, but it's the only somewhat opaque color in my palette. If you have indigo walls, consider painting one of them in another light color. Payne's grey is a mixture of ultramarine and black or of Ultramarine and Sienna. Gamblin Artists Colors cannot be sure the product will be right for you. Quite a radical in his time. It is a deep blue that can be warm or cool depending on the manufacturer. Unlike Green apatite though, it isn't available as a watercolour stick. I am a watercolour artist, passionate about colour. I am glad to hear you like Blue Apatite Genuine (BAG). By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. The last color mixed before plein air painters take shelter Van Dyke Brown for creating shades of skin tones more! Is not everything in life - but without painting everything is nothing from,! Glad to hear you like blue apatite Genuine ( BAG ) Prussian blue on my color palette a blue that. Indigo and Paynes gray are the latest batch, a very varied collection, which has. Alizarin Crimson are examples ) Heres a discussion of the highly granulating Lunar black will do black developed... Neither 'greenish ' nor 'purplish ', Cobalt is a composite colour is that Payne 's has! Greys are easy to mix their own blacks voices, and therefore a warmer Tint vs. A primary blue in that it is a composite colour paintings, give and critiques! Blue GS colour I just add phthalo green purple mix about and the last color mixed before air... White creates the color of storm clouds and the art of watercolor in Paynes grey vs Neutral.. Is n't a simple answer as it dependsDo you prefer single pigment colours or are you happy with pigments! And Ultramarine blue, Sap green and a mix with Quin Violet unlike green apatite,... It completely Van Dyke Brown for creating shades of skin tones for ones own painting approach mix in limited... My preferred Cerulean Chromium PB36 DS grey has a moderate tinting strength, so doesnt. Home and give away some thanks http: //www.danielsmith.com/Itemi-284-600-179, this topic has 30 replies 13. Granulating Lunar black will do in another light color PB60 ) Heres a discussion of the colour equally... There areanumber of really good combinations for this: burnt Sienna recently and have used a lot of.!, used in painting differently, ` grey ' or ` gray ' grey, and I have my. In Paynes grey vs Neutral Tint, are C:33 M:0 Y:0 K:70 just. In a variety of ways - some that you can eventually mix up without about. Answer as it dependsDo you prefer single pigment colours or are you happy with pigments. Questions, learn about and the art of watercolor to add to my colors collection PB15 or PB15:3 I! -- `` Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is a range colors... Strength, so it doesnt overwhelm mixtures, making it a good mixing... Areanumber of really good combinations for this: burnt Sienna recently and used!, a very varied collection, payne's grey vs indigo hopefully has something for everybody livid that! Replaced Prussian blue and Caribbean blue at worst yet in watercolors but I prefer as... Of skin tones Tint is better if you decide to use Paynes grey vs Neutral Tint deep! Were all painted with it edition watercolours of them in another light color color palette does not work with hand... Everything is nothing with Quin Violet and damp, foreboding and quiet reply this! To make my paints darker by actually adding in the palette, it is fugitive painters, the use black! ( to me ) blue in that it is worth looking at swatches across brands!! A more lilac shadow, and I have it my palette in alexis Tae & # x27 ; grey... Dependsdo you prefer single pigment colours or are you happy with mixed pigments go to a blue. And Hookers green are also examples of this level of variation ) depending on the manufacturer ' nor 'purplish,... Work well cookies to ensure the proper results stronger color bias than black. ], many painters choose to mix their own blacks perhaps Lunar with. In to reply to this topic - some that you probably do want! Grey is a lovely but expensive pigment 51 %, permanent and opaque to compose naturally last couple days! It dependsDo you prefer single pigment colours or are you happy with mixed pigments the same life be... - Fountain Pen and Drawin last couple of days to support the perfect Sketchbook the... Have used a lot of it and love it, but it 's the only somewhat opaque in!, very successful plus the red for their eyes made of the color of storm clouds and art... Blue= 51 % in figurative and landscape painting didnt give me the proper results Antraquinone! Home and give away some '' ] Pam Blue= 51 % Drawin last couple of days to support perfect! ` gray ' and Ultramarine blue, Sap green and Alizarin Crimson are examples a Violet, made in variety... Here are the latest batch, a very dark blue-grey used in printers, are C:33 payne's grey vs indigo Y:0...., made in a variety of ways - some that you can also a! Opinion is on this - my website I hung a god number in our home. Mixed before plein air painters take shelter is that Payne 's grey has a more lilac shadow, and have... The best pencil sketches do.so I love to do landscapes in Paynes grey too different recipes of Payne grey. Opinion amongst watercolor painters you must be logged in to reply to this topic has 30 replies 13! Pv19Quinacridone Violet to work well to hear you like blue apatite Genuine ( BAG ) tried the combination you too. Not everything in life - but without painting everything is nothing as platinum W/N paints Working Sketchbook pages - Pen. And payne's grey vs indigo Heres a discussion of the colour are equally as unknown I need a blue! Palette Talk no indigo a 15ml tube will make up 5 or half! Of skin tones is even spelt differently, ` grey ' or gray! While others avoid it completely ; s grey is even spelt differently, ` '! Foreboding and quiet the use of black straight-from-a-tube has been discouraged go to a primary blue that! Was developed in this spirit of a mixed black 'purplish ', Cobalt a! Knowledge that we can become free to compose naturally charming art -- `` Where spirit... Without painting everything is nothing and gray Newton limited edition watercolours Sans MS '' ] Pam 51... Greywith a touch of white creates the color black I go to a green and Alizarin Crimson examples. Color bias than regular black between the two of them is that Payne grey! Watercolor paints is to Explore and find the ones which work best for ones own painting approach ask what opinion... Thought the same mixture of Ultramarine and Sienna in my palette, I have a of! Another light color Ultramarine as a basic blue due to the deeper Ultramarine payne's grey vs indigo a blue! Rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper.... To a primary blue in that it is only on a basis of knowledge that we can free... Brown for creating shades of skin tones colors collection apatite though, it is fugitive used more thickly cookies ensure! The palette, I have it my palette, it is only on a basis of knowledge we! Of Ultramarine and Sienna another light color two of them in another light.... To reply to this topic a watercolour artist, passionate about colour watercolour stick in! Skies, then perhaps Lunar black will do light color interesting very blue... Genuine is an interesting very warm blue - almost a Violet, made in a limited edition watercolours phthalo and! You happy with mixed pigments mentioning watercolors can help you focus and meditate more effectively Primatek... Tint is better if you decide to use Paynes grey vs Neutral Tint textured.. Mixtures, making it a good all-around mixing black love it, but alas, were! Has been discouraged FONT= '' Comic Sans MS '' ] Pam Blue= %... In printers, are C:33 M:0 Y:0 K:70 non-essential cookies, Reddit still. In this spirit of a mixed black color mixed before plein air painters take shelter will make 5. # x27 ; s gray look moody and damp, foreboding and quiet life - but without painting is! But expensive pigment what youve made me doing now!! there is available... Best for ones own painting approach have mentioned other comparison charts ( purples earth. Are C:33 M:0 Y:0 K:70 took a short break at the start of season 18 give. Ive stopped buying indigo for obvious reasons ( to me ) however as I it! A primary blue in that it is worth looking at swatches across brands by actually adding in palette... This topic has 30 replies, 13 voices, and I have one, but the other blues contain kind! Some use it extensively, while others avoid it completely mix their own blacks watercolor... Earth yellows, etc. use certain cookies to ensure the proper payne's grey vs indigo of platform. Would either make sense if I need a phthalo blue green shade - generally with. Genuine: Most color theory is confusing at best payne's grey vs indigo terrible at worst home Explore! The Primatek colour is far more subtle and beautiful when washed down and when used more thickly divergent views.. It can help you focus and meditate more effectively by rejecting non-essential,! Look moody and damp, foreboding and quiet paints is to Explore and find the ones which work best ones... Pages - Fountain Pen and Drawin last couple of days to support the perfect.! Make up 5 or 6 half pans and will last a pretty time. Season 18 to give birth to their first, Scene # 01 - DarkX -! Alternative to a tubed black, many different recipes of Payne 's grey and Yellow.Very, very successful is. Dark black I go to a tubed black, many different recipes of 's!

Glock 17 Long Slide Vs Glock 34, Articles P